Miniatures Talk
Palmyrene Empire
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3rd century AD, Syria and Middle East, Roman Empire, Sassanid Empire... were Palmyrene and Queen Zenobia armies kitted like Romans (Hellenistic armies should be long gone, at this point! or some elements are still usable?), plus Parthian/Persian cavalry with a touch of middle eastern Nabateans (or Assyrians!!?), with all the Eastern Roman Archers you are able to find...?
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giorgio
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03 Jul 2009, 17:59
Nothing to do with figures but a town near where I live actually has a Palmyra Square, which I have always found interesting, considering how small Palmyra was and how relatively unsignificant it was.
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steve_pickstock
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20 Jun 2010, 19:56
Probably because the mummy of Queen Zenobia is preserved in a secret catacomb under the Warrington Pyramid Arts Centre!
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giorgio
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03 Jul 2009, 17:59
giorgio wrote:Probably because the mummy of Queen Zenobia is preserved in a secret catacomb under the Warrington Pyramid Arts Centre!
My first reaction was to ask if I could have a pint of what you're drinking!
But there actually IS a Pyramid Arts Centre in Palmyra Square!
Turns out that they have renamed the old Parr Hall - and to be honest if she is buried under there, we may need Brendon Frasier to dust off Rick O'Shea from the Mummy films, because the queen will not be happy!
Good googling btw, chapeau, sir.
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steve_pickstock
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20 Jun 2010, 19:56
You could investigate why the square is dedicated to Palymira.. i wasn't been able to find out.. maybe a local archaelogist that made findings and excavations, preserved in local museum.. maybe
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giorgio
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03 Jul 2009, 17:59
or, maybe Palmyra was the name of the local factory of canned tuna...
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giorgio
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03 Jul 2009, 17:59
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I have had a good look at it myself to no avail.
The square was developed in the mid 19thC, so I assume that like many other places the street planners decided to go with classical names but I will email the museum tomorrow.
I mentioned your query about troops types for Palmerene armies at our club tonight - one of the players who started with me on WRG rules and army lists, mentioned cataphracts and clibanarii, and from what I can remember - there was a sort of Sassanian feel to the army with infantry being very much second class troops.
The only army lists I have in digital format are for DBA - which are written in their own code.
Palmyran (260-273 AD): bear in mind that the limit on DBA is the number of units you can have and 'units' are stylised so 3 Knights of 4 Blades etc.
3 Kn4* - your cataphracts/clibanrii
1 Cm3* - a unit of camels,
1 Cm3 or Kn4 - another unit of camels or another unit of cats/clibs
2 LH2, [1 Bd4 or Ax4 armored infantry) - these are your Roman Legionaries wannabe's I assume.
[1 Ps2] or [1 LH2, 1 Bw4] or [1 Bd4, 1 Ax4 (Roman)] - a choice of a unit of psiloi, 1 unit of light heavy infantry and a unit of archers, or a unit of blades and a unit of Roman auxilia (This sort of army list is one of the reasons why I stopped playing DBA)
3 Bw4. - three units of archers (the Roman Asian archers you mentioned.)
I hope this helps.
The square was developed in the mid 19thC, so I assume that like many other places the street planners decided to go with classical names but I will email the museum tomorrow.
I mentioned your query about troops types for Palmerene armies at our club tonight - one of the players who started with me on WRG rules and army lists, mentioned cataphracts and clibanarii, and from what I can remember - there was a sort of Sassanian feel to the army with infantry being very much second class troops.
The only army lists I have in digital format are for DBA - which are written in their own code.
Palmyran (260-273 AD): bear in mind that the limit on DBA is the number of units you can have and 'units' are stylised so 3 Knights of 4 Blades etc.
3 Kn4* - your cataphracts/clibanrii
1 Cm3* - a unit of camels,
1 Cm3 or Kn4 - another unit of camels or another unit of cats/clibs
2 LH2, [1 Bd4 or Ax4 armored infantry) - these are your Roman Legionaries wannabe's I assume.
[1 Ps2] or [1 LH2, 1 Bw4] or [1 Bd4, 1 Ax4 (Roman)] - a choice of a unit of psiloi, 1 unit of light heavy infantry and a unit of archers, or a unit of blades and a unit of Roman auxilia (This sort of army list is one of the reasons why I stopped playing DBA)
3 Bw4. - three units of archers (the Roman Asian archers you mentioned.)
I hope this helps.
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steve_pickstock
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20 Jun 2010, 19:56
very interesting and useful! thank you! it seems quite confirming my hypotesis... finding camels and mixing mounts from sassanids, schythans, parthians, persians seems to be fun!! for infantry, heavy and lights, I guess I will mix romans, some successors' units... mmh (maybe are a bit too old for 3rd century..)
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giorgio
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03 Jul 2009, 17:59
Isn't the internet a wonderful thing!
This morning I had a look for WRG's £rd Edition army lists and found this -
http://www.wargaming.co/recreation/deta ... sbook2.pdf
Compared with the DBA lists these give you a better idea of what an army is composed of and they also give guidelines as to percentages, what could be used with what and generally they are far more friendly.
76. PALMYRAN.
260 AD to 272 AD.
C-in-C mounted on horse as SHC, L, or as EHC, HC, HCm or LCm, JLS, Sh, @ 100 points. 1
PA standard to accompany C-in-C, @ 30 points. Up to 1
Sub-General mounted on horse as SHC, L, @ 50 points. Up to 2
Roman Sub-General mounted on horse as HC, JLS, Sh, @ 50 points. *1
Cataphracts "Regular B" SHC, L, @ 15 points. 19 to 48
Regular light cavalry "Regular C" LC, JLS, B, Sh, @ 10 points. Up to 12
Volunteer light cavalry "Irregular B" LC, _B, @ 5 points. Up to 20
Regular archers "Regular C" LMI or LI, B, @ 3 points. 20 to 48
Extra to give Sh to regular archers, @ 1 point. Any or all
Irregular archers "Irregular C" LI,- B, @ 2 points. Up to 30
Caravan guards "Irregular C" HCm, JLS, B, Sh, @ 13 points. Up to 10
Light bolt-shooter with "Regular C" crew of 2, @ 20 points. Up to 2
Roman cavalry "Regular C" HC, JLS, Sh, @ 10 points. *5 to 12
Roman Moorish cavalry "Regular C", LC, JLS, Sh, @ 8 points. Up to 6
Roman legionaries "Regular C" MI, HTW, JLS, Sh, @ 5 points. *24 to 56
Roman auxiliaries "Regular C" LMI, JLS, Sh, @ 4 points. *24 to 56
Border horse archers "Regular D" LC, B, @ 5 points. Up to 12
Arabs "Irregular D". Up to xh LCm, JLS or B, Sh, @ 4 points, rest LC, JLS, Sh, @ 6 points. Up to 30
Up to 18 regular command factors @ 10 points.
Up to 10 irregular command factors @ 25 points.
14
This list covers the whole period of Palmyran independence. Minimums marked * apply if any of the troops referred to as Roman are used. Wargamers refighting the battles between Zenobia and Aurelian should not use such troops, and their Roman opponents should not use SHC or any troops with bows. Romans should not use Arabs unless they have already won at least one previous battle. An unaccompanied Palmyran army fights best in open or gently rolling terrain. Its most effective tatic is a thundering cataphract charge shot in by massed archers. Beware of using so many ancillary troops as to deprive yourself of sufficient cataphracts or distract you from employing them properly. Romans are most useful in closer terrain. The reason they are classed as subordinate instead of allies is that Odenathus was formally appointed commander of Roman forces in the east by Gallienus. Roman legionaries can fight in wedge.
Hope this is of use to you.
Warrington museum has been contacted re the square - but to be honest I still don't think you will be justified in having Palmarene infantry "fighting in square".
This morning I had a look for WRG's £rd Edition army lists and found this -
http://www.wargaming.co/recreation/deta ... sbook2.pdf
Compared with the DBA lists these give you a better idea of what an army is composed of and they also give guidelines as to percentages, what could be used with what and generally they are far more friendly.
76. PALMYRAN.
260 AD to 272 AD.
C-in-C mounted on horse as SHC, L, or as EHC, HC, HCm or LCm, JLS, Sh, @ 100 points. 1
PA standard to accompany C-in-C, @ 30 points. Up to 1
Sub-General mounted on horse as SHC, L, @ 50 points. Up to 2
Roman Sub-General mounted on horse as HC, JLS, Sh, @ 50 points. *1
Cataphracts "Regular B" SHC, L, @ 15 points. 19 to 48
Regular light cavalry "Regular C" LC, JLS, B, Sh, @ 10 points. Up to 12
Volunteer light cavalry "Irregular B" LC, _B, @ 5 points. Up to 20
Regular archers "Regular C" LMI or LI, B, @ 3 points. 20 to 48
Extra to give Sh to regular archers, @ 1 point. Any or all
Irregular archers "Irregular C" LI,- B, @ 2 points. Up to 30
Caravan guards "Irregular C" HCm, JLS, B, Sh, @ 13 points. Up to 10
Light bolt-shooter with "Regular C" crew of 2, @ 20 points. Up to 2
Roman cavalry "Regular C" HC, JLS, Sh, @ 10 points. *5 to 12
Roman Moorish cavalry "Regular C", LC, JLS, Sh, @ 8 points. Up to 6
Roman legionaries "Regular C" MI, HTW, JLS, Sh, @ 5 points. *24 to 56
Roman auxiliaries "Regular C" LMI, JLS, Sh, @ 4 points. *24 to 56
Border horse archers "Regular D" LC, B, @ 5 points. Up to 12
Arabs "Irregular D". Up to xh LCm, JLS or B, Sh, @ 4 points, rest LC, JLS, Sh, @ 6 points. Up to 30
Up to 18 regular command factors @ 10 points.
Up to 10 irregular command factors @ 25 points.
14
This list covers the whole period of Palmyran independence. Minimums marked * apply if any of the troops referred to as Roman are used. Wargamers refighting the battles between Zenobia and Aurelian should not use such troops, and their Roman opponents should not use SHC or any troops with bows. Romans should not use Arabs unless they have already won at least one previous battle. An unaccompanied Palmyran army fights best in open or gently rolling terrain. Its most effective tatic is a thundering cataphract charge shot in by massed archers. Beware of using so many ancillary troops as to deprive yourself of sufficient cataphracts or distract you from employing them properly. Romans are most useful in closer terrain. The reason they are classed as subordinate instead of allies is that Odenathus was formally appointed commander of Roman forces in the east by Gallienus. Roman legionaries can fight in wedge.
Hope this is of use to you.
Warrington museum has been contacted re the square - but to be honest I still don't think you will be justified in having Palmarene infantry "fighting in square".
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steve_pickstock
- Posts: 1342
- Member since:
20 Jun 2010, 19:56
I've been wanting a set of them since I first read about Zenobia more than twenty years ago!
Maybe in the whole of history rather unimportant, but so iconic and fun!
There are many drawings by Osprey, Rava and others. More or less with late romans, arabs and some sassanians one could do something, but is one of those things that needs a set produced.
Maybe in the whole of history rather unimportant, but so iconic and fun!
There are many drawings by Osprey, Rava and others. More or less with late romans, arabs and some sassanians one could do something, but is one of those things that needs a set produced.
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Xantippos - Posts: 582
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21 May 2013, 12:00
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